Jessica VanTroost, Association of Legal Administrators (ALA) board member and McGlinchey Stafford Strategic Operations Administrator, drops #legalops wisdom as she responds to questions from around the community.
Tracy Tennyson, Bradley Arant Boult Cummings LLP Administrator and ALA Suncoast VP asked, "How is the Association of Legal Administrators, Jacksonville's board is so successful with membership and what strategies they use to keep the group so well engaged?"
Amanda Freeman, 3L Law Student, asked, "How do you coordinate student clerks and interns into teams in a way that supports their education and career development but is also aligned to firm business outcomes?"
A client of cio.legal asked for advice on, "Juggling the post-COVID world where people want (or EXPECT in most cases) to work from home whenever they want. Obviously, I want my employees to have flexibility, but how far is too far, and how do you strike a balance?”
Listen in as Jessica tackles these tough topics and more on our latest episode of the Sun Leaders Podcast.
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ABA #ALA #WeAreILTA #Management #HR #LegalOps #LegalTech
Ryan Bankston:
Hello, Sun listeners, thank you for joining us. My name is Ryan, founder of Cio.legal, where we manage technology for solo and small practice law firms. I've been working in legal technology for 18 years, a month to month, and affordable. If your firm could use some technology support, reach out to me. Ryan at Cio.legal. I'm a member of Sun leaders. This wonderful podcast, a member of the international legal Technology Association, president of HDI Skyway and a business partner of ALA Sun Coast, which is where I had the pleasure of meeting our guest today, Jessica VanTroost, has been in legal administration since 2006 working at a couple of firms before finding a home at McGlinchey Stafford for the past 11 years, where she has evolved into a behind the scenes leader in recruiting operations, HR and special projects. Jessica is very active in the Association of Legal administrators, where she is a nationally recognized speaker on leading firms through unexpected change. She has served on several committees, both inside her local Jacksonville chapter and at the national organization where she is currently serving on ALA's board of directors. Jessica, thank you so much for joining me today.
Jessica VanTroost:
Thank you so much for having me.
Ryan Bankston:
I've collected some questions from you, from colleagues, and I'd like to start with one from a mutual friend of ours. Let's get started. Tracy Tennison, office administrator at Bradley's Tampa office and ALA Suncoast, Vice President, would like to know how ALA Jacksonville is so successful with membership, and what strategies your board members use to keep the group so well engaged.
Jessica VanTroost:
This is a great question, and one that I'm very proud of. Jack's ALA has been a labor of love. I think anyone who's worked on the board in the last 10 years would agree, we do a lot of different strategies. I would say the first and I think most important, probably eight years ago, we decided that our goal was not to get new members and get business partners, those are great, and though we need those to keep it going. Yeah, but our goal was name recognition within our local community. And when we made that decision and really shifted our focus, it changed how we did everything. It changed how we interacted, how we networked. Because when you're not when you're going into a room or going into another firm, all we want them to know is who we are and what our name is. And so we've found that when we do that, and we do that really well, they come to us now, business partners, members, and they're interested in us. So that has been one of our strategies that I think has been very…
Ryan Bankston:
It’s a littlebit of a field of dreams, if you believe that they will come right? Well, so far, that is awesome. It's, it's interesting, is it makes so much sense. It's, I guess it's not really apparent. It's like, the goal is, of course, to get members, so they're paying dues, and to get business partners, so they're paying sponsorships, so you have a budget so you can host events, yada yada yada, but you just broke it down to the fundamental let's get her name out there, let folks know what we stand for, what we do, and then the rest just happens.
Jessica VanTroost:
Correct? We also have some very talented and very creative people behind the scenes, and a lot of past presidents have stayed incredibly involved, and it's a it's an awesome environment, because I'll use myself as an example. I don't ever need to be president of Jacksonville, Ala. Again, it was a privilege to do it, but my joy and thrill is watching people that sort of come up behind me, if you will, right, like in succession, and having them be successful and so, so that's my goal, right? I'll do whatever behind the scenes to make that, that happen and work. And I'm not saying that to pat myself on the back. I'm saying that because that's how you get people who are developed into leadership roles, right? Who who get the knowledge, and you're cheering for them, and they feel supported going into those roles, because it's scary to be the one who has to remember all the things. And so when you have a really good core group behind the scenes helping with that load, and I think that's probably, I think chapters across the US would say that that is probably their biggest impediment in a successful chapter, is keeping people involved and lightening the load. Sometimes one person has to, has to do, yep, of get, of all the things, of all the administrative parts of running a chapter, right hosting the events, doing them a. Should list making sure everything is up to date with ala international that needs to be. It can be a burden sometimes if it's only one person doing it. So we, I think, do a good job of that. A couple other things that we do. We have a Monday meeting every Monday at two o'clock. We all get on a call anyone website related communications, and we just throw out ideas. No idea is too crazy and wow, I will say, out of our craziest ideas have come our best ideas. I mean, we'll throw out something that we know we can never do, right? An example of that is, I had a dream in my heart. A lot of these start with a dream in my heart. So I apologize to most of the people in Jacksonville, ALA, but they do indulge me most of the time. But I had, had been, you know, to some Jaguars games. I know they don't give us a ton to cheer about these days, but we still love them. And we they do an intro video, if you go to a game, and it's kind of a Welcome to the jungle theme, and they come out, and it's just like a hype video. And so when it was football season this year, I was like, let's do a hype video for the Jags. Like, let's recreate something like that. And so they gave it a shot, and it was, it turned out funnier and completely different than we thought it would be, but it was great.
Ryan Bankston:
Did you play? Welcome to the Jungle.
Jessica VanTroost:
Okay, so there's some copyright issues with that. So we're not allowed. Erin is, like, probably cringing as she hears us, because she's always the one behind the scenes, being like, we can't break any rules. And I'm like, all the rules. So again, that meeting is for those reasons, of like, this is what we want to do. Here's what can we do? Yeah, and we just throw all kinds of funny things, and we have a whole group of people who are not afraid, afraid to embarrass themselves or be silly or Dex ALA. And that's, I think that kind of environment just breeds crazy ideas.
Ryan Bankston:
Yeah, that's awesome that you've that you've fostered that kind of that that among the group, that safety among the group, where they can come and be silly and have fun, and, you know, I know so often folks, when they join, like, professional associations, think that they have to, like, step their professionalism up a level. You know, it's like it's not just work. It's like you're representing your firm among a group of peers from other firms, and it can be kind of intimidating, but hearing you talk about ALA, Jacksonville doesn't sound like a very intimidating group to have.
Jessica VanTroost:
And I think it should be fun. I mean, another example we do annual conference. Ala International has an annual conference, usually end of April, beginning of May every year, and this past year it was in Colorado. So, you know, we were thinking about funny things about Floridians going to Colorado, right? Because there's, I mean, you could endlessly make fun of, you know, Florida, Florida, man, all the things. And so we lean into that. We lean into the things that make Florida and Jacksonville who they are. And so we did a video on what we think, you know, a typical Floridian would would joke about bringing to Colorado in May. Well, it's not like snowing in May, generally speaking, in Colorado, maybe on the mountains, but not like where we were going. And so we did a whole spoof on bringing skis and over packing. And then, you know, we did a full snow suit with flip flops, right? Because that's a very floor thing. Doesn't matter how cold it is, absolutely it's pulled out today. I guarantee you people are wearing flip flops with their winter coats and hats and so those are the types of things that we have fun with. It like they people responded to that. We did another one back a while, back on Tiktok, there was the we're insert whatever you are, of course we blah, blah, blah. And so the video was, we're legal administrators. Of course we and then we just did funny things about being legal administrators. That was probably our wildest one to date, and has gotten us the most views. And it was completely free to film. I mean, we, it didn't cost us anything except for time, right? And I will tell you we almost did not post it. So this is another thing that I would say is probably my last point on this is, Do not be afraid to post something that is not perfect, right? This is not my full time job, right? I have, I have one of those. Um, so we had a sound issue. And I bet you probably three people noticed the sound issue, besides the people that made that video. But we had recorded. Now, you're all gonna know what it is, but we had recorded one part of the video in the morning before we had the microphones. And the reason was one of the people was sick. Well, we didn't know she had COVID, and ended up taking us all out after that, but so be careful on the video. But we had so she went home six, so she recorded her part separately. So it just quite doesn't quite fit in with the video. We almost didn't post it because of that, because, oh, everyone's gonna notice. Nobody noticed. It was hilarious. It was shared. That's so and that's not what it's known for, right? And. If it is okay, then it's a great story to talk about how we can improve for next time. Yeah, so we like to lean into our failures and fail forward. That's another thing we use, quite often.
Ryan Bankston:
That is awesome. I applaud the confidence of the group to make that post, even though it's not perfect, you know, and, and, and there's like, a bit of vulnerability that comes with that, you know, and being willing to show that, especially in the public light, is awesome. That took some, it's a great example
Jessica VanTroost:
It’s something we’re getting used to. And it took some people stepping out of their comfort zone, you know, and leading that. Because we are representatives of our firm too, and we take that responsibility very seriously when we're doing these things. We'd never want to do anything that would, you know, embarrass our firms or our profession, you know, but it's also okay we work really long hours and we work really hard. It's okay to have a little fun too.
Ryan Bankston:
Yeah. Plus, you want to show the human element, right? Folks want to do business with people, not with necessarily institutions that feel very not human. Yes, that's exactly right. That is awesome. Well, I have just one question that really stood out to me as somebody that does a lot of volunteering and works with associations, why did you choose Monday for the meeting?
Jessica VanTroost:
That's a great question. Actually, I think our group tends to find Monday afternoons like, everyone doesn't put things on Mondays. So we found a Monday afternoons, a little sweet spot right there at two o'clock where we just, like, it's kind of a lull, like, Monday mornings are busy, so we wouldn't do them, but I don't know, it just worked at the time, and now it's just a standing meeting. So you'd have to go back to, like, six years ago us, and, yeah, there just was a time that it worked for whoever was doing it at the time.
Ryan Bankston:
I feel like that's such a great time for so many reasons. Like, for one, I know of a lot of administrators that would probably show up to that meeting and you're like, did you eat lunch? And they probably didn't, because it's Monday and it's a hard job all the time. It's like, oh, it's time for the call. I should feed myself. That's awesome way to support your members.
Jessica VanTroost:
Thank you. We're very proud.
Ryan Bankston:
Well, I think a lot of folks familiar with ala know that there are national events and initiatives you were just talking about the conference in Denver, but it's my understanding that the Florida ala chapters work together in their own special way. Would you tell us a little bit about that?
Jessica VanTroost:
Yes, they do. It would be my pleasure. This is something I'm super, super proud of. I know I'm just saying I'm proud of everything but, but this is one of the things that was, again, back, going back to a dream in my heart, there have been other states that have done statewide retreats and worked together with all the chapters. I'm a secondary member of the Middle Tennessee chapter, and they do a Tennessee statewide retreat that's amazing. Virginia, does it? Texas does it. I know I'm missing some please don't send me hate mail. But there are other chapters that have done this. And so in my head at one point, I was like, gosh, there is, at the time, this was way back 2019 2018 2019 I said there's like seven or six or seven chapters in Florida. Why are we not doing something like this? But it's a hard thing to start. So we ended up getting a little bit of traction back in 2019 and we pulled off a small but got it started statewide retreat. We thought we were on to something. We got some good responses from it. And then 2020 came. Oh, didn't that just change everything? And so, we did get it off the ground, but it died out a little bit. And so we have a wonderful group of people about two years ago, who picked up the baton and ran with you know what the structure that we had set up from before, and they pulled off last year, what I think will be the more traditional structure of the Florida statewide retreat, and it includes all of The chapters that in Florida that want to participate. And each chapter, we gave each chapter the option to have a member on the planning committee, so everyone's represented. Some took that, some declined, but either way, they are able to have some input. Florida is a weird state to plan something in, because it's so it's actually super big. Yeah, I don't always think about being so big, but you have the panhandle, it's really a wide range we need to cover. So Orlando tends to be just the easiest place to get to. Also it has that mouse that people tend to enjoy. And so a lot of people will, like, make a sort of weekend out of it. And so we found good success having it in that location. Will it be there forever? I don't know, but we're on to the next iteration of it, and it will be September 11 and 12th of this year. And we're looking really excited, looking really forward to it, and we're really excited about what we've started to build there.
Ryan Bankston:
That is awesome. I'm really hoping to go this year. I still don't know if I'll be able to, but I've been looking at some of the options to participate. Wonderful. It is really a special event. Just from the material, the stories I've heard from members who have gone, the content really is great, really. I hope it is a big success and hits this year.
Jessica VanTroost:
And you get a lot of, I think personal time more personal time with our our business partners, and, honestly, other Florida chapter members, right? Which I just don't get those because you go to national or international events, and there's a lot of people there. I can't always sit with someone from Tampa right for the whole time, but, but here, it's sort of built in, yeah, and you get a lot more of that, and often I mentioned this to you in a prior conversation, but we have a lot of administrators in Florida who run more than one office, so we are in more than one up until recently, when I changed positions. I ran for our Fort Lauderdale office and our Jacksonville office. Our current regional administrator in Jacksonville runs the Jacksonville, Tampa and Fort Lauderdale office, so we have a lot of crossover. And there's many more. I'm using McGlinchey as an example, but there are many more administrators that do that, and so having those connections in the other cities is extremely helpful.
Ryan Bankston:
Yeah, I imagine. So that's a lot of travel between those offices, not like they're very close. You're saying, like, yeah, Florida is really big. So, you know, Jacksonville to Fort Lauderdale.
Jessica VanTroost:
Used to be easier. I will say the airlines are not quite as direct and easy as it used to be. There used to be multiple flights. So now it is trickier.
Ryan Bankston:
Yeah. I went to a boot camp in Miami. I rode the Amtrak train for the first time. That was an experience. Is interesting. But before I get into that story, you mentioned 2020, and a client of CIO legal would like advice on something related to that, specifically on juggling post COVID world, where people want kind of quoting here, or expect, in most cases, flexibility in their schedules, such as working from home whenever they want more work, life balance, etc. She says, specifically, I want my employees to have flexibility. But how far is too far? And how do you strike a balance?
Jessica VanTroost:
If I had the answer to this, I would probably retire tomorrow. So I will, I will tell you we wrestle with this at our firm daily. You know, there is so many different things, so I'll give you my opinion on various parts of this. But I will. I admittedly do not have the, I do not have the secret recipe for this, but I think a lot of it is you have to know your firm and what your firm's goals are, right? So McGlinchey is interesting in that we have 18 offices spread across 12 states. So we have 160 about 160 attorneys, so we have a lot of smaller offices, which is unique for our size.
Ryan Bankston:
Yeah, I remember us talking about the Monroe, Louisiana?
Jessica VanTroost:
Exactly, yes. Way back, yep. So it's, it's just an interesting layout, so we really have to lean into the city aspect of it, like, where are we? What is the, what is the geographic location warranting? So as an example, Boston, DC, New York, they're all commuter cities, right? So you're taking public transportation. So this came into effect a lot during COVID, but just knowing, like not just being able to just hop out there, is a significant commute. Like some people in our New York office commute over an hour each way. I drive a mile and a half up the road to go to my office in Jacksonville. So those are very different experiences, right? So what is the value to that employee and so that's something we think. We try to think about a lot, the other thing that we do, and again, we go back and forth, but right now, and this is not a hard and fast rule, but this is our general practice. We like to have people coming into the office for the first 90 days. It builds rapport. It allows them to get used to the technology that we offer. Build relationships with the attorneys they're working with, with their administrators, with their peers. Once we feel like the 90 day mark, you hit your stride. And then we start talking about hybrids, right? Are, is the attorney and the manager comfortable with this person's you know, work product and their ability to do their job outside of our brick and mortar space. And then we'll start incorporating that in. We usually start with one day. Sometimes we'll go to two. It does depend on our offices too. Like I would say, Jacksonville is very much an office. I think most people are in or hybrid. Some of our other offices, not so much. So I think you have to take all of that into consideration, also the different types of practice. So we do a lot of regulation. Work that stuff is really all that the whole team is remote. They work across all of our offices anyways. So what does it matter? They're not sitting outside of each other's offices anyways? So that lends itself to being able to be a group that can work remotely. Also cost, cost of brick and mortar space is a huge thing that we talk about. I mean, I'll use Jacksonville as an example. I think it's a fair, fairly priced market, but if you compare that to, say, Boston, New York, I mean, the numbers are astronomically different. And so what do we want to spend in the markets that we're in? Something else we do when we go into new space or new markets, especially Tampa, this is we just did this, because we just opened an office in Tampa recently, and we set up Regis space, and we really get a feel for the traffic patterns, the public transportation, the parking garages, right? All of these things seem trivial, but they're very important to your employees, I assure you. And that's some of the stuff that the employees give us feedback on. Right parking meter costs, all that stuff, so we take that all into consideration, and then we do it by position. But those are, those are some of the things that we talk about and think about.
Ryan Bankston:
And yeah a lot.
Jessica VanTroost:
If anyone does have the answer to this, like, please, please drop me a line.
Ryan Bankston:
Well, I'm sure there's plenty of people that think they have the answer. I remember a particular bank executive that forced all of his clients to work in the office and like, you can't support my bank unless you're in the which, you know, for data governance reasons, like, maybe. But there's a lot that was not considered there, you know. And definitely, I think, from where I said, it was easy for me to say, well, that's going to affect the work product, you know? And, yeah, sometimes at the end of the day, it's about the work product, it's about the client.
Jessica VanTroost:
It is, and that's a hard thing to do and I know, look, I'm an employee, right? I'm a staff member, but I'm also a manager in our space, right? And so you have to wear both hats. And so I appreciate people wanting flexibility. I like having flexibility myself, but at the end of the day, we're running a business that ultimately pays all of us and solves our clients problems, and those are the important things that need to be done. So I think you can find a balance in between there. And I do think, from personal experience, I think McGlinchey, one thing McGlinchey does really well is and has even pre COVID. My father had a serious health issue that had happened back in 2018 and or, yeah, that 2019 early 2019 and so they gave me flexibility during that couple of months. It really ended up being probably a three to six month range where I needed some flexibility, and they gave it to me. And this was before working from home was really like, as accepted as it is today within law firms, and because law firms are traditionally a little slow to adapt. And I'll tell you what that flexibility is for that short period of time overall. I mean, I've been at McGlinchey 11 years, so we're talking about three to six months over an 11 year period. That endeared me to Yeah, because, and we actually, I mean, we have a hashtag that we use is, like, why McGlinchey? But this is one of my reasons for McGlinchey. And I say that not to brag about McGlinchey, though. I mean, brownie points, if anybody's listening, but I tease. But I say that because, when you are thinking about your employees at whatever firm you're at, take that into consideration is I will never forget that, you know, that grace I got during that period of time, a very difficult period of time in my life, yeah, and look, all other firms are always out there, right? We can, if you're relatively good at your job, you can spit and hit another firm that's gonna pay another quarter an hour, right? Why don't I take those calls? Why don't I want that? Because I have the flexibility here. I have the backing of my higher ups, if you will. They believe in me and I believe in the firm. So that's the relationship you're trying to build. Yeah. So whatever you decide your model is, I encourage you to to think about it from that feeling and then work backwards again. All that to say we're still running a business, right, right? But I think if the work gets done, who cares where you do it from?
Ryan Bankston:
Yeah. Now that makes sense. I mean, how you build loyalty and trust and dedication among your team members? It makes a lot of sense. I've seen that before. I've definitely been a part of that too. Things that a previous employer did for me that kept me there almost 14 years, you know. So that's awesome.
Ryan Bankston:
Struggling with this question, it can sometimes be difficult. HR, company policies, different states, different practice groups, what have you. But what are some things that small teams could do to kind of build trust and work together and and kind of rumble with some of these questions of flexibility, like, you know, calling off on a day when there's a deadline or what have you, some of these things that tend to cause big ripples in a team. But you know, you know, what could a partner do for their paralegal and Associates, or what have you?
Jessica VanTroost:
Yeah, so, I mean, this is my personal opinion, so I'm not speaking on behalf of any organization I'm a part of or sit on boards for, but I think my philosophy is, I think it's all about communication and setting expectations. And I think sometimes you have to have hard conversations to do that, right? Sometimes deadlines are missed, sometimes people get sick at inconvenient times. Now, sometimes it can't be helped, and sometimes you wonder, did you really need to call in that day, right? So I think having those conversations, and it's a hard time right now, because people are always about, you know, what can I get from the company? What can they come, you know? So we're on opposite sides of the spectrum, but I think just having communication with your employees and letting them know that you care and that you're a human being, right? It's okay if they see you have a bad day. It's how you react to the bad day that's important. It's how you show them, because they're gonna have bad days too, right? It's, it's how you show them, like we're gonna get through this, like this was not good. This is but, but here's what we're gonna do going forward, or here's, I don't like how this day panned out. Here's where my frustrations were, I'm sure you had some frustrations. Why don't we talk about those? And then let's come up with a strategy where, going forward, we're not in this position again. And I think people shy away from having those kinds of conversations often, right? They just sit and get mad, or they post on glassdora that they're mad about their job that day, and sometimes that is a repetitive thing that needs to be posted about, but sometimes it's just having a conversation. And I do think the art of conversation, just like the art of networking, is lacking a bit in society today, but I think those are really important skills that can honestly solve 60% of the issue?
Ryan Bankston:
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. And some of my favorite authors would certainly applaud that, like Kim Scott and Brene Brown, the name of, Oh yes, yes, yes. Oh my gosh. I can't imagine, like, I can think of the times either I or I have seen. It's like, folks have the conversation in their head, but it never comes out of their mouth. And then you see what happens from that, and you're like, All right, wait a minute.
Jessica VanTroost:
And you know, as the manager, nobody's gonna like to hear this, but as the manager, you, 99% of the time have to be the bigger person. You could be standing on the highest ground of moral righteousness that ever existed. And it doesn't matter if you really want to solve the problem, Yeah, gotta? You gotta come down, humble yourself, and have the discussion. And sometimes that comes with, you know, you saying, I cannot have this happen again. Here's what I expect from you going forward. Sometimes those lead to tougher conversations, right? But you've got to be willing to do that right? I started my career at an employment law firm, and I will be forever grateful that I did because they taught me to look at problems in the workplace from not an emotional right point of view, because it's so easy to get wrapped up, easy, but really, you know, if you're looking at it from a much higher view, it really changes how things are perceived, right?
Ryan Bankston:
Yeah, that's a huge point. It's wonderful. One thing I learned certainly was that, once you identify those emotions that are coming up and kind of clouding your judgment and communication that, like, once you kind of acknowledge it for yourself, you got to give yourself some time, because you can't just be like, Oh, I'm angry. Now I'm not angry. No, you're gonna need a couple of minutes.
Jessica VanTroost:
So that's another thing that I actually give employees, and it's, it is, it is hard to do sometimes, because you really, you know, you're into the conversation, and you really want to make. Your point, yeah, but from a manager perspective, some I had someone recently do this. She said, I need a break from this conversation for a minute. Can I please regroup? That's great, absolutely. And she stamped me out of it too. We came back together. We had a much more productive conversation after and so, so don't be afraid as an employee to ask for a minute, and as a manager grant that.
Ryan Bankston:
Yeah, absolutely. That is gold, right there. That person is, well, I'd like to move on before we run out of time, because I could talk. I could certainly talk about stuff like this for an hour. Amanda Freeman, a 3l law student and Law Clerk, would like to know how you coordinate student clerks and interns into teens in a way that supports their education and career development, but is also aligned to firm business outcomes.
Jessica VanTroost:
As passionate as I am of every question you've asked me so far, this was probably my favorite question that was going to be asked, because I think this is bold to ask. This is something that should be being talked about, and this is ultimately what makes or breaks experiences of people coming into your firm and right. You're cultivating attorneys, and not just attorneys for your firm, right, you're helping to produce and shape attorneys that are going out into the entire legal field, and we definitely take that approach when we are talking about our law clerks. And so while some of these are my thoughts, I did consult with the person who runs our summer associate program, so these are her thoughts, also mixed in on how we do things. So while I pretend I'm an expert, I am definitely not. I am passionate about people's experiences when they come into an organization, whether it be a firm, whether it be ALA, I just struggled early in my career with feeling like I belonged in the room and with being accepted by my peers. I was very young when I became a manager, and that's a whole other story for another podcast. I had to get over that sort of imposter syndrome, and I didn't know it was a thing until, like, years later, when someone was like, that's what you have. So those experiences early in my career have really shaped how I want people to feel when they come into my organization, my firm, whatever it is that I have my hands on. And so I speak from sort of that perspective, yeah, these things. I think McGlinchey, she does this particular thing very well. We have, again, 18 offices. So we have clerks. We don't have clerks in every office, but we have them across the firm. And it's different. We use different reasons and criterias why we have clerks, or why we don't have clerks. And sometimes one office has one year and not the other. We mix it up. We're different goals and initiatives that we have. And some offices have clerks with like one clerk. And then our New Orleans office. For example, we're born out of New Orleans, so that's our largest office. And so you have a couple of law clerks there, and they get to have that camaraderie. So we try to make sure that camaraderie that you would get if you were, you know, you and I sitting across from the desk here, you get that across the firm. And so that's one of the things that we really try to do, to include them in a group. Things, include them in the office, things, anything that they do, they come in, and it's just like they are a permanent employee. So you go to all the functions, we treat them exactly the same, and one of the things that the leader of the associate summer associate program told me was she likes to give people the full experience of what it's like to be an attorney. So you're gonna have a really long day, oh boy, a really, not so great day, a day where you do fun stuff and you get to goof off and have a, you know, enjoy those different experiences, client interactions, going to court the whole picture, right? Because we're trying to develop broad, respectable attorneys who are going out into either the legal community that we will all be practicing in, that we currently practice in, or they're coming back and working for our firm. So we think that benefits our client, right either way, because they're probably working for our client indirectly, in some way, where they're coming back and working at our firm. Hands on our motto for our firm is we are here to solve our clients problems. So how can we do that? And if, again, this goes back to a little bit what I was saying with the Jacksonville ala philosophy. If that's your goal, your goal is not making the most money, billing the most hours you know, being the person who stays at the office the longest you know, those are all necessary things to run a business from time to time. But that's not what we are really here to do. And we are here to solve our clients' problems. And how can we do that and contribute to that in the greater legal. Community, which is turning out and making impressions on and helping develop new attorneys that are coming into the legal world. Because the legal world is the size of my hand. It is, it is small. And even from a legal administrator perspective, everybody knows. Everybody wants to be removed. Same thing with the attorneys. And so when you think about the community like that, you know, what is the point of having an associate come in and have a bad experience at your firm? That's not good for the firm. It's not good for the new attorney, right? So there's nothing. No good comes at that. Yeah. The other thing that we do is we like to integrate other resources into the business of law. So not looking at it just as practicing law, it's the business of law which encompasses everything. So we have our bill billing business development and marketing department work heavily with our new associates, and we add the summer associates into that so they are learning how to, you know, write a LinkedIn profile. How to, you know, go out and network on behalf of a firm, on behalf of a client, interact with clients, all of those different things that you don't always get right here. Here's the work. Does this work? Build this hour, right? There's more to it than that, right? How do you develop a book of business? Where do you even start? How do you work with, you know, the most senior partner in your firm? Yeah, right, how do you integrate those things together? And those are the types of things that we try to have, you know, mini classes and sessions on and things like that, and really give them an in depth experience on what the business side of law, yeah, not always talked about what the business side of law is. And I'd argue the business side of law might be more, might, might take up more of your time than the actual practice of law in some instances.
Ryan Bankston:
Oh, yeah. I mean,what is the utilization? Usually what 30 to 40% for even high performance, exactly. So like, yeah, that means more than half of your time is spent not billing.
Jessica VanTroost:
Talking about things like, how do you bill your time? Right, right? What? What do you write down? How do you write if you don't? I mean, there's studies, and I'm not going to quote it correctly, but I mean, if you don't put in your time daily, the amount of time that's lost every day that goes by, you know? So attorneys who like to shove it in at the, you know, day 29 of a 30 day cycle, we're losing, as a business, that attorney is losing billable hours, the firm is losing possible money that could be collected. I mean, it really is quite remarkable, like, if you don't know and understand and lean into that, what's being left on the table. So those are, those are a few things…
Ryan Bankston:
Great, that was all great. And it certainly resonates with me. I like how you talked about teaching and creating a space for someone to kind of learn their purpose, or how, like, any little action fits into the overall purpose of the firm and why we're here. It's something that resonated with me from when I used to recruit and hire and train and manage Help Desk folks and I would always in training, try to communicate to them like their purpose, how they fit in, how when an attorney calls them, in that moment, they are representing the firm and the services of the firm. And gosh, I mean, it makes such a difference for somebody. I think most people, yeah, some folks are different, but I think most people, when they see how that contributes to the overall purpose, have a lot more pride about showing up. They could get that's more rewarding knowing how they're contributing, as opposed to just punching a cock pissing off their boss.
Jessica VanTroost:
Also, I think one of the things we do is we expose them to all of the different departments that we have, in different sections that we have, because as much as lost students come in and think that they know what they want to do, sometimes they don't know what they don't know, right? And I say this for myself too. I often don't know what I don't know, but showing them, for example, I gave the example, we do a lot of regulatory and compliance work. That's not something you really get off, like off the cuff in law school. That is not so I don't know that some fifth and sixth year lawyers could probably tell you what that is right, unless you live in that space. And so while we are doing our financial services litigation, which is more what we probably know about and come in and want to I want to be a litigator. I want to be in court. I want to be where the action is. There's actually this whole other side of that, right? And so some of our practice groups sort of overlap the client work. We work with a lot of financial institutions and banking clients, and they have regulatory needs, they have financial services needs. And so showing them both sides of that, so that they're exposed, so that when they go back and decide what they are. To do, whether that's come and practice with us or not. They have a more informed employee who's making those decisions. And we try to make sure we expand you knowledge of practicing law. Because if you just go to law school and you just watch Law and Order, you think that you know you can be a paralegal, a judge or an attorney, right? And there's so much more in the world and legal space that even I didn't know about until, you know, I sort of stumbled upon it.
Ryan Bankston:
Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like a lot of thought from some very smart people went into how this is designed in McLintock. I like to think so. Yeah. I have so many other things I want to talk to you about. I want to ask you about. You know, what should be considered when you're looking at an office space and deciding whether or not it should be leased or purchased? I want to ask you about legal, lean, sigma and but we're gonna we're gonna run out of time. We don't have enough time to talk about all these things because we've only got 45 minutes. Okay, perhaps maybe in a future date, we can do another podcast, or maybe we can do a teams call that we record. We can hit on some of these subjects, because I know a lot of my audience would get a lot out of hearing about Lean Sigma. Legal, Lean Sigma. I'm a Lean Sigma Black Belt, but that, of course, is not legal Lean Sigma, which I'm sure is very different. I want to know more about that, but we don't have a lot of time today, and I do want to make sure we take a couple of minutes to talk about leading through unexpected change, because that's something that you have taken to several different chapters. Now I think you can, or at least at one time, you could get CLM credits on your presentation. You're certainly an established thought leader when it comes to leading a firm through unexpected change. So I was hoping you could tell us a little bit about that.
Jessica VanTroost:
Thank you for the nice intro to that. I admittedly do not think of myself as being a thought leader in this particular realm, but I do think I unexpectedly became a bit of an expert in it. Sometimes the world and life does not go exactly as you plan, and so you get to be well known for something that you did, like, that's not what you got out of bed that morning was like, You know what I'd really love to do today? Really like to talk to people about my dead boss, right? Like, nobody wants nobody wants that. Nobody should want that, but that's what happened to me. Back in 2018 I had a managing partner in the Jacksonville office who was very healthy, 44 years old. Went home, thought he had the flu. Two days later, he died very unexpectedly. He had a heart condition that he was unaware of, and basically that's the short version of what happened. So we were in an office that had our leader just gone very suddenly. And I thought we were, you know, at that time, I thought we were very unique in our experience, because it was a unique experience for me. But the more I go and talk about this subject, I've found that it is quite common. And so if you are listening to this and you think that this is not in your bingo card, I didn't think it was on my bingo card on october 25 either, but on october 26 it was there. So I think this is something that people don't talk about because it's sad and it's tricky. There is a lot that goes into this and so, but there's also a lot that I wish I would have known, right? I thought I was a prepared manager. I thought I was, at that point, I've been managing for, gosh, two decades, right? Like, I thought I'd seen it all. I thought I'd really, I was really solid in my career, and what I learned from that experience was I didn't know what I didn't know. So I just felt like there were things. For example, have a communication plan. You might think you have a communication plan. And again, going back, if you would have asked me on october 25 what might we have a communication plan? Absolutely, we do. Mark will tell me how to do it. But on October 26 Mark wasn't there to tell me how to do it. And so it also was something where I, you know, I, all of a sudden, everything I worked for went through mark and then to the higher ups. Mark wasn't there. All sudden, I'm working with people that I deemed in my mind, you know, way above me on the food chain. And you know, that was an awkward experience. So having some sort of introductions there and and developing some relationships, because you never know what, what's going to come of that, having a plan for how you tell employees hard news, because no one's ever prepared for that, things like when the grieving spouse or family members want to come and pick up that person's belongings, like, how does that work? Right? That's a terrible thing to have to discuss in any room and no one, and that's why people don't do it, but it's a real thing, and there are legal ramifications for your business if that is done wrong, or if they're, you know, and I'm just scratching the surface here, but those are the types of things that I wish were discussed more. And again, they're not because they're not fun, but things that, yeah, like that. I wish I would have known how to tell what's the order to tell people you don't want anyone ever you know, you think we have way 160 attorneys in the firm, and you have to get that information out to those attorneys and then also inform your clients, but you want to be the one who informs your client. You don't want them hearing it secondhand, just like you don't want another employee hearing it from another employee. And then there's the business side of all this that goes down, right and and when something like this happens, like it or not, business happens, right? Those are, those are weaknesses in your business, and people take advantage of that. And so those are the types of things you should be prepared for, because they happen.
Ryan Bankston:
Yeah? Kind of makes sense. It is a hard topic, yeah, but it makes sense. I mean, it's, it's, I've often heard people say, Oh, you got to have a succession plan, for instance, right?
Jessica VanTroost:
And this is completely different than a succession Yeah. So glad you just said that. Yeah, yep. And that's, again, people talk about succession plans all the time, but this is such, and I'll tell you this, this is, this is an example, too. What if you have to close your business so that people can attend a funeral, right? It seems simple, right? When we're talking about it right now, but really, when it gets down to it again, remember, we're a business. We still need our clients' needs, still need to be met. So what is the process for doing that? Who pays? We had 17 offices. Do we pay to bring everyone to the funeral? Though it's silly, it's something that the employees care about. And so if you're not having to make those decisions when you're in an emotional, right and very vulnerable state, that is, it's much better for the business.
Ryan Bankston:
Do you advise that this should be a part of business continuity planning?
Jessica VanTroost:
Absolutely, 100% if I accomplish anything in my life as a legal administrator, it will be just putting that particular point out there into the universe.
Ryan Bankston:
It makes a lot of sense. I mean, in my experience, when most folks think about business continuity, they're thinking about, Oh, a hurricane, or, like, the office burns down, or, you know, whatever, natural disasters. Absolutely, I don't often hear somebody talking about the death of a key employee, unless it's about buying life insurance, right?
Jessica VanTroost:
I'm actually glad you brought up life insurance too, yeah, because one of the things when I had been giving this particular presentation for quite some time, and I had a dear friend in South Florida who's who had partners of her firm flying on a private jet from Tampa back to South Florida, and there was probably the plane, and they did not survive, and they had an issue. She brought it up and said, Hey, you should add this to your presentation, and if your attorneys are flying private make sure that your life insurance policies don't have a clause in there that excludes that. I would have never in a million years thought to look for that, but again, until that, you know, we talk about those things. So I mean, that was almost a very, very big deal in their world. And when you're talking, you know about smaller firms, especially, you're extremely vulnerable if a key partner is not involved in the day to day of the firm anymore. Yeah. One other thing I'll add is, I started this presentation as leading through grief, because that's where everything we just talked about is where it came from when we hit COVID. Times, very uncertain. Yeah, this presentation evolved into leading through unexpected change, because we reflected on the behaviors and things that were happening and stress levels and things like that, and how employees were acting and reacting to things during COVID And we said, these are the same emotional reactions, the same stress levels, the same taking care of yourself, stuff that happened during this event, during when my Managing Partner passed away, and so I was actually probably much better equipped to adapt to COVID and changing times, because the worst had already happened. So yes, COVID was crazy, and I know what was going on, but it wasn't. It wasn't quite as shocking and tragic for my personal world. I'm not making a general sweeping of that. It wasn't right in my face like it was there. So it was interesting how the employees of the Florida offices reacted to COVID and kind of being uncertain a little bit better than the other offices, not that they were, you know, no one did a bad job, but it was. It was an interesting observation of when you've sort of lived through a lot of uncertain times, kind of being able to roll with that again and just saying, Okay, we'll, we'll figure this out, right? And you had that core team, and that team was there when Mark passed away, and. We were working together during COVID time, and it really was quite a, quite a different experience. And so that's how this presentation has evolved into really modern, modern times.
Ryan Bankston:
Yeah, yeah. I would love to see it sometime. How could folks find it? Do they need to join their ala chapter and invite you to come speak?
Jessica VanTroost:
Yeah? I mean, yes, we do it for you know, we've done outside of ALA as well. So I do have a partner that's a speaking partner on this particular topic, but she's actually the one who gave me the encouragement she had said that this had happened with to one of her partners, very unexpectedly back in a firm that she worked at back in the 90s. And so we collaborated and kind of came up with some different things. She had a lot of media involved. It was an it was an accident that had happened. And there was different things. And by the way, also when, when these big things happen, or there's an accident or something there, there's client ramifications in there too, because the people, the insurance companies, they could be your client, they could be your clients. And so there's even another layer to this whole presentation. Obviously, we can't get into it all today, but yeah, those are the types of things that just putting on people's radar, I think is helpful. And hopefully, my hope is you never, ever, ever need one bit of advice that comes out of this, and that's how I usually start the presentation. But the reality is, and the more that I give this presentation, the more often I find it happens. Unfortunately.
Ryan Bankston:
I can hear the value in it, like so much of it. I mean, like on the insurance exclusions, I feel like that's important, like in just about any insurance policy for your business. I think about liability insurance, and something I dealt with early on was whether or not I was exercising a level of control in the businesses I served, and if I was that, it was excluded, you know, because I'm not able. Yeah, there's so much like that that I feel like it's very important to kind of the standard operating procedures of your business, like you have to take it into consideration either I change the way we operate, or we change our insurance policy.
Jessica VanTroost:
Yeah, that's so accurate.
Ryan Bankston:
And then on COVID, I, at the time, supported several different firms, so I got to see firms that were better prepared than others. Great. I was working very closely with the firm that they were forcing, they had some offices in China, so they kind of had an early indication that it was going to get pretty bad. And they transitioned some 2000 odd staff members and attorneys to laptops, did some fire drills. So when March came along, they were like, Oh my gosh, we forgot about accounting, and it was like 11 machines that they had to switch out. But other than that, everybody was pretty much ready, and it was like a little bump. There was another firm that had not really done much planning, and March hit, and suddenly they're sending 1000 plus folks home and enabling remote services for them and, like, their whole network crashes, correct, you know? And they were just like, down for four days, yeah? So, boy, I can. I've seen it. I've seen it hurt when somebody Yes Does the lip service to planning or no planning at all. Take the advice. Think about it, look at it. Yeah, practice, yep. And I know it's easier said than done. In some cases, we all don't, you know, have very much time, or maybe the budgets, but…
Jessica VanTroost:
Again, like, I mean, I can't say it enough. It's not a fun topic. Like, it's a happy hour. Nobody wants to do it, nobody wants to talk about it, and nobody wants to think it's them and so, and I don't blame them. I don't want to talk, but it's real.
Ryan Bankston:
Well, if somebody wants to talk to you about it, how could they find you?
Jessica VanTroost:
Oh, you can reach out to me. I have LinkedIn. I have any, you know, email address is on our website. I'm listed there. Feel free to reach out. And we're I'm happy to give the presentation. I'm happy to talk about it with you, one on one. And that's the other thing too, is I think just giving the presentation, I have had a number of people reach out to me and say, hey, this person just had something happen at their firm. I've given them your name to be support. And that's the thing. It's just, there's no, there is no manual that tells you, like, there's not like page 16 tells you how to deal with whatever you're going through. It just doesn't exist. And so you have to have just the pillars in place, and then you figure the rest out. I can't change that the tragic event happened or is going to happen, but you can be better prepared to react to it, and that's really the better takeaway. And what I try to tell people is like, you're not like, you're not planning for, like, you know, not being here tomorrow, but you're planning for, you know, just the continuity of because they're people's livelihoods are riding on this business, right? And so they're putting their trust in you, and it's a good thing to do.
Ryan Bankston:
Yeah. Yeah and thinking ahead on something like a communication plan, create some more space and time to deal with what you didn't see, right? Yes, guys, great advice. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope that we can do this again, and we can talk about legal Lean Sigma, absolutely, whether or not you should buy or lease your office, and all the other fun topics that I'm sure across your ala meetings, but we're closing it up. I would love that. Thanks. I'll see you in Orlando in just a couple of months. I hope I. Thank you. Thank you Sun listeners, and keep coming back. It's a lot of different hosts for the sun leaders podcast. We talk about all different kinds of things, whether it is business or internal guidance systems or legal technology, you'll find something here for you. So you'll find me every third Thursday, Cio.legal, post post art episodes, and you can find some of our previous episodes on the Sun leaders podcast.org, I have some great guests have joined me here, from Malbec, from Clio, from all kinds of different walks of life, in legal tech and otherwise. So thank you for joining this and hope to catch you next one.