Ryan is joined in this episode by Colin S Levy, the Director of Legal for Malbek, a Contract Management Technology company. They discuss Colin's decision to work in-house rather than for a tradition law firm and how that career path has influenced his popular presence on social media, where he is globally regarded as one of the most authentic and engaging legal technology thought leaders. Listen to the end to take note of helpful resources and tips Colin shares from the CLOC and ACC side of the legal tech community.
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Ryan is a cohost of the Sun Leaders Podcast.
Ryan Bankston: (0:00:22-0:01:47)
Thank you for joining us today on the Sun Leaders podcast. I'm your host. Ryan Bankston, the CIO.legal, we specialize in technology management for solo, practicing and small practice law firms. Today I'm joined by Colin Levy. Colin is a prominent figure in the legal tech world, known for his insightful blog articles, books and active presence on LinkedIn.
Colin is an author of the legal tech ecosystem, innovation, advancement and the future of law practice. This is a book I owned and have turned to several times over the past year in the context of running a solo legal tech practice. It covers different types of legal technology, popular myths, innovation and adoption, challenges, strategies for success and improvement, and it showcases contributions from more than 50 well known legal technology thought leaders. Colin knows well through his work and online presence.
Colin is also the co author of CLM for dummies and for my ALA listeners, this CLM is not your certification track, but rather stands for contract life cycle management, a topic where Colin is an undisputed authority, having spent much of his career focused on contracts, and is demonstrated by his position as the Director of Legal at Malbec, a prestigious legal tech company that specializes in contract management systems and also a good wine Colin, I am so glad you're here. Thank you for joining me.
Colin Levy: (0:01:48-0:01:52)
Thanks so much for having me really, really looking forward to this conversation
Ryan Bankston: (0:01:53-0:02:12)
Absolutely and sorry I said your last name wrong. I worked with some attorneys with the last name Livey, and tend to say that Colin's last name is actually Levy. So quick correction and sorry about that.Colin, I am curious why you chose the in-house counsel path.
Colin Levy: (0:02:13-0:03:37)
An interesting question, well, kind of goes back to an experience I had prior to law school, I worked for a year for a big law firm in New York City as a paralegal, because I wanted to get some work experience before I began law school, but also want to better understand the big law world, and it was through that experience that further reinforced my view or my desire or not work for a big law firm, mainly because I just wasn't really into the idea of recording time, tracking my hours, and fighting over time sheet.
And in addition, you know, at least at the time, even though I was working as a paralegal, I was working really long hours, I didn't have any real control for my schedule. And then wanted to have more control. And quite frankly, you know, from a more professional perspective, I also wanted to be in a position where I could better see the impact I was having as a lawyer. And so working in-house really allowed for me to achieve that, while also really getting to know the business quite well. And it was that that also found compelling to work in house.
Ryan Bankston: (0:03:38-0:04:18)
That's very interesting. I'm not an attorney myself, so I don't have the experience of law school, and my experience working in big firms has always been from the staff side, but I want to make sure my understanding is correct, so in-house counsel, that's going to typically be like a salaried Monday to Friday, 40 hour a week job in the ideal space, of course, but as opposed to, like 60 hours, when you don't know if you're actually billing all of those hours or getting paid for the ones you bill, etc, it seems like a much less stressful career choice, like career path.
Colin Levy: (0:04:19-0:05:10)
I would say that the hours aren't typically less than for big law. But pay on the company and where you work aren't necessarily always the case, but what tends to be the case, your salary. So there is a billable hour requirement that you have to meet so that source of stress doesn't exist. And in general, I found it to be a rewarding career path, and one that is not stress inducing, by and large. But also, I think, given the stage of my career, it also is less stressful than it was when I first started working as a lawyer. When I realized after graduating that I didn't exactly know what I was doing, despite the fact that I had graduated from law school and passed the bar.
Ryan Bankston: (0:05:11-0:05:18)
Yeah? Awesome, awesome. I'm interested in how social media has influenced your professional journey.
Colin Levy: (0:05:19-0:07:08)
Yeah, you know, it's an interesting, interesting question, because some people call me an influencer. I tend to push back against that description, because I'm not one of those types that, is on socials and constantly promoting or talking one proc or another, so I'm not really an influencer in that sense, but I more use social media to help, I guess, sell ideas and concepts around legal tech, around how to use tech, around how to understand it, around how to overcome your fear of technology. And I think I was drawn to social media to do that, because I had initially used a variety of platforms, including LinkedIn, to kind of find my way in legal tech.
Once I started wanting to learn more about it. And by that I mean Regina folks who were either teaching about legal tech or creating products or trying to create products, or had already done so, and want to engage with these people to try to understand their reasons for doing so, their journeys, what they had learned. And then, as I started growing more well versed in the space, I wanted to share some of my own thoughts and comments on it. And I think it's just through that social media became this important method for me to connect with others. But I don't really view it as sort of again, as some way of trying to talk something or sell something or influence something, is more matter of me just trying to support the community, and I find the community is fairly active online, and so that's where I go to support them.
Ryan Bankston: (0:07:09-0:07:14)
When did you make the decision to start your own blog and post articles there?
Colin Levy: (0:07:15-0:08:05)
Well, I've always enjoyed writing. Writing for me has always been therapeutic. It's always been something that I found very relaxing and a way of just getting thoughts in my own head. So I started writing articles, mainly as a way of both helping to unwind and relax, but also sharing some of the thoughts and lessons I've learned through these conversations I had with others. Because I initially had started just sharing interviews, and then it turned into writing, sort of longer thought pieces and having others contribute pieces as well. And so I find that it's a good way to explore ideas and concepts and help show others what there is to learn through a way that I find beneficial for myself as well as hopefully for others.
Ryan Bankston: (0:08:06-0:08:26)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I know I've gotten a lot out of the legal tech ecosystem. So is it true that the legal tech ecosystem kind of grew out of your blog? Is it like a collection of articles from the blog, or is it more of a collection of people from the blog that got together to write the book?
Colin Levy: (0:08:27-0:09:19)
The idea behind the book initially was to provide this high level kind of introduction to world legal tech through some of the stories that I had gleaned from interviews I had done of other folks.
And so it started out as kind of a collection of some of the bits and pieces of those interviews, and then I realized that there was more that needed to be included, or I wanted to include. So it became more than just that. But certainly the bread and butter of the book really is snippets of conversations I've had with others who have done really cool things into space. Because I found, personally, that one of the best ways to learn is through hearing the stories of others who have done things in the space. And so that really is kind of what underlies the book, in many ways.
Ryan Bankston: (0:09:20-0:10:05)
Yeah, yeah, I found it very helpful understanding kind of how legal technology and legal ops works together, how those disciplines that are different in the same often I kind of see them used online, or see professionals identifying one way or the other or both. You know, when I originally grabbed the book just based on the system legal tech ecosystem. I thought it was going to tell me more about what conferences to go to, what groups to join, you know, like the community of people that are in legal technology. Um. But it seems it's more about how that technology and processes and people work together, right?
Colin Levy: (0:10:06-0:11:12)
Yeah. I mean, you know, if you're looking for kind of a list of conferences to go to, or other types of events to go to, or people to follow, I have resources I can suggest for that, but rule of the book is meant to be essentially a in a sort of a sort of introduction to this, to the space, and it touches upon various elements that make up the space. And I called it the legal tech ecosystem, because I view legal tech, really as an ecosystem of not just technology, but of people, of processes and businesses and technology all working together, but also influencing one another and being dependent upon one another. And I want people to get a sense of the forest, as well as the trees that make up the forest, if you will. And so that's really kind of the main theme of the book, because I'm very much a believer in this sort of concept of interconnectedness, and I very much see that play out in a variety of ways within legal tech.
Ryan Bankston: (0:11:13-0:12:54)
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, the book is great, and that topic is incredible. I'll definitely come back to what you brought up about the conferences. I think that our audience could take some notes there, but yeah, I mean the ecosystem of legal technology. I just think about it. Through my experience working in the staff side of the of large M law firms and and from service providers.
It's interesting to see where that is absolutely true of all of the technology and people working together. It's also interesting to see where it's very much not true, like the technology that lives in the silo of one practice group or one office and the rest of the firm, like, doesn't really touch it because, well, they're, you know, in a different practice group, so they have no, you know, reason to, or even if it's just because of the different attorneys that maybe came from another firm that merged a couple of years ago, or what have you, and their technology comes with them.
So that's a huge challenge in big firms, like, how do you get the firm to work together when these different silos exist? Where are those silos appropriate and a strength to your business? And where is it, you know, actually eating into everybody's productivity, or the quality of what the clients get into the day. I wanted to ask you, your career has been focused on contracts and contact management. I was hoping that maybe you could share a story about some of the biggest challenges that you faced in contract management over your career.
Colin Levy: (0:12:55-0:15:41)
Yeah, yeah, plenty of them. I think one story that I could share comes from an early stage in my career, when I was working for a global manufacturing company. I was part of a small team that was trying to put in place a relatively rudimentary sort of document management slash contract review solution that we're developing in-house.
It was intended to help initially, at least with non disclosure agreements, because we just were dealing with a lot of them, and they were particularly tricky in some cases, because we were dealing with companies that were either providing specific parts or manufacturing specific things for us in specific ways. And given the competitiveness of the industry, it is really important for those NDAs to be very protective of our intellectual property, and so we were trying to help ourselves be better service providers by developing the solution to help with those NDAs.
However, what we realized through kind of jumping full on board with development was we'd skipped a really important part of the process, which was getting together user requirements, because we were thinking just kind of about ourselves, since we were reviewing NDAs, but we didn't think so much about those people who were sending us these documents to review and what they were seeing and what they wanted to be interacting with, because we were trying to automate and help make things faster, but not just for ourselves, but also for our salespeople.
As a result of us overlooking that initial step, we then realized that the solution we're building was one that for us made a lot of sense, but really wasn't making as much sense for others, and so wasn't likely going to be used as well for others. And because of that, we kind of ended up being not all that successful, and that was fine. We learned. We learned a lot about ourselves and about the process, but it really was a key lesson I learned earlier my career, and I was glad to have learned it, because it's something now that I talk about a lot, which is that before looking at potential solutions, need to really understand your problem, and your problem encompasses more than just kind of the bottleneck itself, but those who are contributing to the problem or experiencing the problem, and you really got to understand that first, before you move ahead to any other step, including, importantly, developing or looking at solutions.
Ryan Bankston: (0:15:42-0:15:51)
What is a tool that you use when you're in that situation where you're trying to understand the problem, or you're helping a team understand the problem and they're struggling?
Colin Levy: (0:15:52-0:16:34)
That's a it's a good question to you know, there's no real, I wouldn't say there's any real tool, aside from, frankly, just being an active listener, meaning reaching down to people and really listening to what they have to say, and taking full stops of what they share, and not kind of anticipating what they're going to say and then responded, but more just really listening and taking it all in, and then seeing what you're left with after you've done that. So I really think that the key first step in understanding problem is to kind of go on a listening tour of those who are experiencing this problem and how they describe it and how it's impacting them, and that helps you better understand both the problem as well as the perspectives on the problem from those who are experiencing it.
Ryan Bankston: (0:16:35-0:17:21)
Yeah, absolutely, that makes a lot of sense. You talk about something in the book. Actually, I think that applies here and is very helpful. And that's the use of Six Sigma, which, for those that don't know Lean Six Sigma, these are kind of disciplines for process improvement. But one section of it is on problem statements, and how you can drill down a problem statement into something that is measurable, something you can test against, etc, something that's statistically sound. There's a lot that goes into it, and I think that could apply here. I was interested, since you brought six sigma up a couple of times in the book, is that something that you're familiar with, did it just come from a couple of folks who interviewed.
Colin Levy: (0:17:22-0:18:25)
so a bit of about that came from something that came up during a bunch of interviews that I conducted, but also something that I have myself been interested in, because I'm very much someone who is process oriented and interested in how processes work or don't work, and how they can fall apart, and sort of problem identification and being able to test against something specific is really important, because not only am I process-oriented, I'm also data driven.
And so in order for me to best help someone or best understand a problem, I need to have the data and understand what it is, and that ties into Six Sigma. And Lean Six Sigma in terms of figuring out what the problem is, being able to test against what it is, because the way to learn, the way to improve, the way to come upon a solution, is to test different ways of solving and see whether it's solved or not. So that's super important.
Ryan Bankston: (0:18:26-0:20:25)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's a great story I've definitely experienced when mapping out processes and trying to come up with a solution, that there's definitely parts of a process being like several different pieces kind of connected together. You got inputs on one end, outputs on the other. But some of those pieces in the middle, the cogs, as they were, are interchangeable with other processes that may be accomplishing completely different things for the business.
And if I've seen where, when that's not taken into consideration, those cogs become part of that automation. And so that interchangeability is, you know, you know, when you were talking, I was just thinking about something simple as, like, redlining, right? Like at a firm that, you know they there's lots of reasons why something may be red line, not just contract, you know, life cycle management when you're redlining contracts, but you know, any pleadings or, you know, memos or briefs or what have you, there's red lines all over the place.
So like trying to build some type of redlining process into the Contract Lifecycle Management tool that's separate from how anybody else in the firm may redline the document. I can see where that would be. It could be like, when you look at it's like an efficiency because you save time in the clicks to get the red line document. But since it's a different redlining tool or process than what the rest of the firm uses, it's kind of, it's almost a waste right? So that I can see, from my own experience, kind of that same thing has happened. I think that's a common trap that folks can fall into when they're doing this, when they're automating processes, right? Would you agree?
Colin Levy: (0:20:26-0:21:49)
Yeah, absolutely. There are a lot of different traps people can fall into. And something I talk about in the book, and something that you kind of allude to a little bit is just sort of the shiny key syndrome of thinking that technology, just because it exists means that it's going to be the answer, which is not really always the case, if at all.
Which goes back to the problem identification set, which is so critical. But in addition, you know, there's a variety of different ways of solving a problem potentially using technology, which is why it's important to get to understand those who are going to be part of using any potential solution, and have them be a part of evaluating potential solutions. Because in my world of contract management, but also in a lot of other worlds, with legal tech, it's really important for the tech to be used, and the only way to and one of the best ways to ensure this can be used, is making users be a part of the process from day one. Yeah, because otherwise, what will happen sometimes is the decision maker, purchaser will buy a piece of tech. Think it's great, but then no one uses it, because no one was a part of it, and they're just perfectly happy to use whatever tool they're currently using, if any, and don't really want to change because they have no ownership in the change itself.
Ryan Bankston: (0:21:50-0:23:11)
Absolutely. I think DevOps has a lot to say about that. Yeah, I love stories. I'd love to hear about a win. Can you share a story of how you've seen technology improve a firm's operations? Yeah, I keep saying firms, because I so often I'm talking about law firms, but of course, with you being in house counsel, I suppose I should say a firm or legal department.
Colin Levy: (0:23:12-0:25:29)
Yeah, well, I can't specifically name the company, but what I can speak to is the fact that we have worked with a really large company in the health space. They've got a lot of complicated processes and and complicated documents as well.
So in working with them, not only us working with them, we’ve been able to help and allow them to automate the management of a lot of these processes and documents, but also, quite frankly, they contributed to the development of new functionality that we now offer to other customers in our solution.
And so that's really the beauty, I think, in many ways, of how I and them also how Malbec works, is we really, you know, I and them are really keen on developing collaborations with others to not just help them solve problems, but help them collaborate and develop new tools to solve future problems. So not just being reactive to existing problems, but being proactive as well to prevent future problems from arising.
And that's been an ongoing sort of theme, I'd say, in terms of my work with Malbec, but also in terms of tech that I see as being successful is tech that doesn't just solve a problem, but also helps contribute to future tools that can prevent other problems. From occurring down the line. Because I think in this age where tech is somewhat a part of our lives and the world is so dynamic and so fluid, we need to be able to be proactive, and we can't just operate in a reactive mode, which traditionally has been how lawyers have operated in terms of client comes to us with a problem, we help with the problem and move on that. That's not really what's going to work the majority of time these days, we have to be proactive. It's fine to want people to be proactive as much as they want them to be reactive.
Ryan Bankston: (0:25:30-0:26:09)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That resonates with me. It's essential in my customer experience and many other disciplines that like the measure of reactive versus proactive. It's like a benchmark for maturity, and just that statement alone doesn't do justice to a lot of business is reactive in its nature. It's just transactional, reactive, and we understand that, but the kind of overall strategy of a business, right? And moving into that proactive approach is, I think, a great measure of maturity, yeah, absolutely.
Colin Levy: (0:26:10-0:27:07)
yeah, absolutely. And it's far. Look, I get it, you know, it's easier to be reactive all the time. Certainly, I have been earlier in my life more reactive than proactive, but, being proactive allows you to not have to be as reactive down the line, because you're preventing problems from arising that you have to react to, and that way, you're helping yourself and others as well. And it goes to, I think, another key theme that I mentioned in the book, but also, frankly, just believe in myself, personally as well as professionally, which is just being someone is open to change and open to adapting, and being open to always learning new things, and not being content to kind of just be happy with what exists now and what you know now, and seeking to grow. Because I think it's incumbent upon all of us to be dynamic, to meet the needs of the world today, but also to live, frankly, in the world or today.
Ryan Bankston: (0:27:08-0:27:38)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Colin, you've got a great network on LinkedIn, lots of thought leaders and very impressive and well educated and creative people. So you're exposed to a lot of different tech startups, a lot of different solutions and things in the market. You know that we're recording this in December. The end of the year is coming up, so I thought it would be fun to hear what innovations have excited you the most over the past year.
Colin Levy: (0:27:39-0:29:40)
You know, it's a good question. I think, certainly generative artificial intelligence continues to be an exciting one. I think it's really fun to play with or play around with. But I think what I am most excited about, and something that we're just starting to explore, is generous generative AI solutions that are multi modal, meaning that they're not just providing text or imagery or audio, but ones that can do all those things at the same time, ones that can provide you with an audio, a video or a podcast episode, even, or something else. I think we're going to see more of that going forward, generative AI, and it's going to be increasingly powerful and able to do more, rather than just provide a sort of text based response. So that's certainly one thing that I'm excited about, and that's been exciting to me this year. Another thing that's been exciting to me over the course of this year has been just the growth I've seen of the legal tech space, both in terms of tools, but also in terms of people. I'm always eager to grow and support the community, and it's been exciting for me to see more and more people wanting to learn about it, wanting to connect with me and others about it, and wanting to, you know, be a part of this, because I see it as more than just sort of like me, but also sometimes, also, frankly, a movement of people that are trying to make the legal industry better suited to the needs of today and tomorrow, rather than the needs of yesterday. So that's another exciting thing, and I expect I'll see that as a theme through 2025 as well, as generative AI will likely continue to dominate the headlines. So those two things, for me, are probably really exciting. And, I'm sure there will be other exciting things happening next year that I am not expecting to see, and that's going to be fun, awesome.
Ryan Bankston: (0:29:41-0:29:57)
And generative AI is certainly high, but it's a little scary too, right? I mean, I see on LinkedIn, well, one in particular, one judge in particular, comes up in my mind that often talks about the dangers of generative AI when it comes to evaluating evidence in court.
Colin Levy: (0:29:58-0:30:31)
Yeah. I mean, generative AI is not the answer to everything, and is imperfect. But that's been the case for any type of technology. Humans are imperfect. So we can't expect technology created by humans to be perfect. So, you know, we'll see. But there's certainly, I think, a lot to be excited about, but also a lot to learn about, and a lot to kind of be cautious when using as well.
Ryan Bankston: (0:30:32-0:30:36)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. What are your predictions for 2025?
Colin Levy: (0:30:37-0:31:52)
Oh, I hate giving predictions because I feel like it's some question that comes up every year this time, and it's always difficult. I think what I can say is, an easy to make prediction is, we're going to continue to see growth of generative AI, that's an easy enough low hitting for prediction.
Beyond that, I think that we will see greater sort of scrutiny of technologies, particularly those that rely on the journey of AI, because I think we've seen enough stories as it is to warrant that this year. So that certainly is something I think we'll see going forward next year.
And then lastly, I think we're gonna see a growing tension between figuring out what's actually real and what's been artificially created. And I think that's gonna continue to be a tension we're gonna have to navigate, particularly, as I said earlier, about generative AI, being able to create video that looks like it's real and looks like it involves real people, and that's going to be something that think of concern to a lot people.
Ryan Bankston: (0:31:53-0:34:44)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. As far as technology over the recent year, that's exciting and predictions for the future. Some of the things that come up for me, as far as exciting is the kind of more well funded or more successful developers out there that have acquired some of the smaller, you know, developers that have really nice tools. And then how that changes, how they go to market over the past year, especially earlier on, I was struck by a lot of these kinds of more startup tools, as far as how expensive they could be or how hard it was to get involved when you're like a solo practitioner or a small firm. But I've seen where, as some of them have been acquired by other groups, their capabilities are becoming more accessible for solo practicing attorneys, and that really excites me.
I'll give an example. Reveal is well known in the eDiscovery space, right? And one of the neat things about their technology, when it comes to eDiscovery, you know, it's kind of any eDiscovery platform out there. It's going to take evidence, a bunch of documents, take a bunch of images of these documents. It's going to OCR these documents, index it so you can search it, and you can tag it organized that way, but not many of them do that with audio files. But Reveal will do it with audio files, where, when the audio files come in and it's processing the files, it transcribes some using AI, not generative AI, but AI, to create those transcriptions, kind of in the same or very similar way as what kind of OCR does for a document. And so now you're searching those audio transcripts, creating tags and things off them too. But you know that the Reveal platform is not really a solo firm tool. It's not really thought of that way. It's more of the bigger firms tools, but Reveal bought Logical which is kind of more seen as a new discovery tool for the solo practitioners, for the small firms, it does not currently have the capability to do that with audio files, but I bet it's a good say that it will in the future. Now that Reveals bottom and that stuff excites me when I can see technology tried and tested. And then the entry point, kind of, like our entry price, is brought down a little bit so that some of the smaller outfits can get access to it. And, you know, it's my belief that that just, you know, closes the access to justice gap
Colin Levy: (0:34:45-0:35:56)
Yeah,you know, I think that's one thing that gets overlooked a lot, or not enough attention. Are technologies and legal that are aimed at small legal departments or smaller. Or the smaller firms that really can help with a lot of the sort of the time consuming work that takes away from their ability to grow and earn revenue.
Administrative work like intaking clients or reviewing documents or putting together a basic form, or filling out a form. These technologies exist, and they're very helpful. And as much as I'm a big fan kind of the larger technology solutions that exist, I think equally exciting are those that are aimed at, sort of these smaller shops that do really great work and are very good at what they do, and are impactful, and as you mentioned, you know, helping to make accessing legal support and resources less time consuming and costly.
Ryan Bankston: (0:35:57-0:37:17)
Yeah, absolutely. I want to turn back to something that came up earlier, when we were talking about the ecosystem and the conferences, and you said you have some resources there that would be fun to talk about for a minute.
My involvement is as far as the circles I run in as LITA and LITA Con or International Legal Technology Association, that's really where I find other legal tech folks, or I have over the years before I became more active on LinkedIn, following your great example. ALA, for you know, kind of the business side or staff side of law, your Human Resources directors, office managers, etc. CIO legal is a business partner there, and then, just recently, sponsored the Florida bars solo and small firm section. If any of you are coming to the EC meeting in February in Orlando, you'll see me there. But these are the circles that I kind of run in for you know, my access to my clients and legal tech gurus as it were, what would you add to that list? And which ones do you know? Which conferences do you go to? I'm sure there's some that are more for the legal departments and in house counsel, right?
Colin Levy: (0:37:18-0:38:14)
Yeah. So I think the ones that you know I tend to go to are CLOC and Vegas. One I want to go to next year is that I have heard good things about running a legal-like a business. Also focus on legal ops. ACC hosts some great events that are particularly beneficial for in-house counsel, as it’s the Association of Corporate Counsel. And CLIO always puts on a great event as well. And actually, next year, it's going to be in my hometown of Boston, so I hope to go, because it's going to be wonderful close to me. So those are events that I would suggest to people, and they're always variety of styles of events too. Those are some of the bigger events, but there also are other ones that are more focused on more narrow constituencies. And so I think it's more matter of just kind of finding the right group for you, where you feel the most connected and get the most out of.
Ryan Bankston: (0:38:15-0:38:19)
Yeah, absolutely, I've heard a lot about you said, I think it was CLOC is that the can consortium of legal
Colin Levy: (0:38:20-0:38:32)
Yeah, that's, that's CLOC. So, the Corporate Legal Operations Consortium does a big event in Vegas every year.
Ryan Bankston: (0:38:33-0:38:54)
Yeah, CLIO, I might see you there. They tried to get me to come to Austin this year. I just couldn't make it work. But I'm looking forward to CLIO Con next year, really hoping to go there and have a fun story. I'm actually going to have someone from CLIO on next month's episode, Joshua Lennon. He's their in-house counsel. And, yeah, coming on to the podcast.
Colin Levy: (0:38:55-0:38:56)
That should be a great discussion.
Ryan Bankston: (0:38:57-0:39:28)
Awesome. Yeah, if you can think of any questions I could surprise him with, shoot him to me in our LinkedIn chat. I'm excited to have him on to talk about his legal tech survey he's been doing for several years. There are a lot of cool tools there. I used it not too long ago to help a firm benchmark. And if you don't know what that is, look me up at CIO.legal. How would folks get in touch with you? Colin, if they want to, if they want to follow you and read some of your articles.
Colin Levy: (0:39:29-0:39:59)
Yeah. So two ways. One is on LinkedIn. I have a legal tech newsletter that you can subscribe to for free on LinkedIn, post notes on legal text. That's one way. The other way is to check out my blog and reach out for a more personalized connection via my website, colinslevy.com, And of course, if you want to check out my book, it's available on Amazon worldwide.
Ryan Bankston: (0:40:00-0:40:43)
Wonderful. It's been so nice having you on Colin. Thank you so much for joining me today, and some listeners will see you out there. Keep coming back. There's more hosts than just me. We talk about a lot of different things here on the Sun Leaders podcast, of course, you can look out for my episodes on the third Thursday of every month where I talk about legal, technology, operations and service management. If you're a solo practicing attorney or a small firm administrator, there's a lot for you on my podcast, but if you're an entrepreneur or any Sun listener out there, you would find a lot from some of our other podcast hosts as well. Thank you so much for joining us today, And I hope you have a wonderful day.